On a cold and wintry day sometime back in December when we were allowed to see other human beings in the flesh (remember those days?) our friend and local copywriter Gill Perkins stopped by Avery & Brown HQ for a cuppa and a mince pie.

A short catch up over a brew turned into a great idea: "Gill, why don't we record this chat and we'll turn it into our first blog post for the website?" Of course, this was two months ago and we're only just getting around to publishing it, but such is lockdown life.

We loved answering Gill's questions and, because she's lovely, she's left out most of the utter nonsense that Tim and I chat and has only left the good stuff. Thanks, Gill. Anyway, enjoy what follows.

Oh. And welcome to outpost.

Gill Perkins: So here we are, in your office in Farnham on a pretty rainy, windy day. But you’ve given me a cup of tea and I’m nicely settled on the sofa, so how about we start with how you met?

Tim: We actually met at LinkedIn Local Farnham. Russ had started the group and I got sent along by the agency I was working for then to see what it was all about.

Russ: I started LinkedIn Local Farnham because I felt there was a gap in the networking community in Farnham. I wanted something free, friendly and non-salesy, and I had been to a couple of LinkedIn Local meetings in London, which I’d enjoyed. So I just thought: ‘If that’s what I want, I need to start one’. So I did! In a pub in Farnham a couple of years ago. 20 people came to the first one and now we have nearly 300 people on our list, and we’ve just celebrated our second birthday!

Tim: When we met at that first event, we chatted a bit and realised we had quite a lot in common, so we arranged to go to a Digital Surrey event together and had a couple of beers in a bit more of a relaxed environment. That’s when Russ asked if I was interested in helping him with Renewabilitee – a clothing brand that he had just set up to try and combat fast fashion. I was really keen, and we got started.

Beer and T-shirts

So this is the brand that sources everything ethically and sustainably, is that right?

Russ: That’s the one. All the garments are made from GOTS-certified 100% cotton, and the factories are completely powered by wind or solar. And when the garments are worn out, they can be sent back to us to be remade into new garments. It’s a highly sustainable, ethical, and circular model. And actually, that’s just the very quick version. You can learn about the entire journey via the website.

Tim: We had a deadline on getting everything sorted for the Renewabilitee brand because we’d booked a stand at Farnham Sustainability Festival in May (2019), so we worked really hard to get everything done on time. It was a good early test of how well we work together!

That's quite a challenge! How did the day go?

Russ: The day itself was both brilliant and terrible, haha. The weather was rubbish, so all our stock got soaked, things kept blowing away and landing in the mud…

Tim: …and you spilled beer all over the t-shirts!

Excellent marketing!

Russ: But we got loads of interest in the brand and our clothing and we had a great time. Overall, it was a really fun day. And that’s the whole point, really. We wanted to show people that there was a different, more ethical, way to do fashion and get them thinking about how they could buy better. And I think we achieved that, even with our wet and muddy stock!

So this was an auspicious start to your relationship? Beer and T-shirts?

Tim: Spot on! By this time, we knew there was friendship there, and that we could work together even under pressure. I was already doing quite a bit of work for Russ’s clients and for his own business – it was becoming a big proportion of my work. So there came a point where we started to wonder if we should make it a bit more formal.

Russ: Gill, this feels a bit like you’re interviewing us on our engagement! But we are a great fit, really. We’re very similar in that we love new and exciting things…

Tim: Yeah, but we're like a pair of magpies! We’re very bad at distracting each other. But it’s all because we’re immediately interested in new marketing and creative ideas and approaches, so we’re excited about how we can use these to improve the way we work for ourselves and our clients.

Russ: We are definitely both entrepreneurial spirits. It certainly suits my character. I love being my own boss – I work harder and I have the freedom to try the things I want to try. And as I said, we’re a good fit. I have no agency experience but lots of in-house, and Tim is the other way round. It's a brilliant blend of different experience, which is translating well into the work we're doing for our clients and how quickly the business is growing.

A conversation in the garden shed

So what happened next?

Tim: I can’t quite remember how it came about - the idea for us to work properly together. Can you?

Russ: It was a conversation in my shed! I told you I had an idea that I wanted to run past you, and you came over to mine and had no idea what I was going to say, so you were a bit worried. But I thought it would be great to start something up together and I wanted to chat face-to-face about it. Whilst I really enjoyed working for myself, I’d realised that it was better working with someone else, because you can split the burden, share the fun, and have a greater positive impact. I wasn’t sure how Tim was going to feel, because he had only just started out on his own, whereas I’d been going for over 18 months already. So it felt like the right thing to suggest, but it was also a bit of a punt.

So how did you feel, Tim? Was starting a more formal business relationship something you wanted to do?

Tim: I had landed a great contract with a company in Sweden, but that was coming to an end and I needed to look at where my next bigger projects were coming from. I could have looked for agency work, which would have meant starting to commute to London, Winchester or Southampton, but I like living in the same town where I work – there’s a real community here in Farnham. So it was an exciting opportunity!

It's a big step to start a company together. How did you take the next steps?

Russ: We took ourselves away for a day to think about how this could work – in October 2019. That’s when we came up with the name, values, positioning statement. And then our first client came about within two or three weeks of that meeting: a LinkedIn Local Farnham attendee who was working with an agency already but wanted more from the relationship. We took a look at his website and comms and saw where there could be improvements and put a proposal together for him.

Tim: I remember that we met him for a drink to go through our proposal, we were pretty shocked when he just said: "Sounds brilliant, when do we start?".

Why were you so surprised?

Tim: I think because we had put this great proposal together, and from my agency background I’m used to clients making a lot of noise about the figure at the end without even reading what’s in the document. But this guy read the document, clocked the figures and just wanted to get going. It’s how it should be!

Russ: So I think that's the moment when we thought – right, this is definitely a viable business idea then! So we started to work on new Avery & Brown clients together, whilst also still managing our own personal client bank. But really, we wanted just to be doing everything from one source.

Leading with purpose and walking the walk

Was merging and working on clients jointly a difficult transition to make?

Tim: We needed to have conversations with all our clients about the new business, so that they were confident that we weren’t leaving them in the lurch or suddenly going to charge more because we were starting an ‘agency’. And it took a while to have all those conversations whilst also keeping up with the workload. We finally incorporated the business in August 2020. It's strange to think that now, at the time we're publishing this post, we're only just over 6 months old as a business.

Russ: Yeah, absolutely. Avery & Brown is now firmly on the map and we’re promoting our joint business and not our single clients. And, really importantly, we have decided not to be a general agency, but to only work with sustainability-focused businesses.

Tim: We’ve already turned down two or three prospects who didn’t fit with our position on sustainability and ethics. For example, an aerospace engineering firm which works with weapons manufacturers and commercial aviation companies. That could have been a great source of revenue for a new startup like ours, but we said no.

Russ: It felt quite bold to turn people down – but we need to walk the walk, and it’s absolutely the right thing for us to do. We're so pleased we have stuck by our values from day one.

Talking about walking the walk, you guys give your clients lots of advice about using social media – especially LinkedIn – and you’ve made sure you follow your own advice. Tell me a bit more about that.

Tim: Yeah, 80% of our clients have come directly from LinkedIn.

That's impressive! How have you managed that?

Russ: I’ve been using LinkedIn ‘properly’ for a while. Originally it was just a CV and recruitment site, and then it became a content platform in its own right. By investing in building my personal brand, I’ve got results that are second to none when compared to other business development activities – both in terms of revenue and other opportunities like speaking gigs and podcast interviews. The reason we are big on LinkedIn is because we see clear results from it.

Tim: We never want to send out cold emails or start cold calling potential clients, because we know that publishing content to LinkedIn and building an audience and relationships works. So why wouldn’t you do it?

Russ: It’s important to say that we know that giving away value for free is a really great thing in marketing, but not once have we ever talked about LinkedIn as part of our ‘strategy’. We do it because we enjoy it – we love the community. We never think: ‘better post this stuff this week to top up the funnel’ – we just have things we want to say or share.

Tim: We don’t have a strategic content plan. We break our own rules. I don’t post as often as I tell people they should, and I’m not as fluent as Russ, but I do comment and interact a lot with content that I like, which gives me the same level of profile views as posting my own content. Russ’s recent post linking to a free download of our daily planner absolutely blew up and had loads of comments and views. I would say don’t be disheartened if the stuff you think is great doesn’t work – there are so many variables – you just have to keep doing it. Consistency is key!

Russ: I’ve also been on LinkedIn for a lot longer than Tim, so I have a bigger audience and it’s more natural for me to post. And I also ghost write and post for our clients, so I’m on LinkedIn a lot every week.

LinkedIn tips and tricks, and measuring success

So, you don't plan your own posts, but you do plan for your clients?

Russ: We do plan our client’s LinkedIn posts because we know that’s good practice! I’ve got a really clear schedule of posts for clients – posts that we know will drive interest. We don’t follow that for ourselves because it’s in our heads and we post when it feels right. And it’s working! It takes quite a bit of our time, because an idea might come to me and then I’ll spend a lot of time crafting the post and making an image and then replying to comments as quickly as possible. We’ve got better at repurposing our content to Instagram so that we’re making it work harder for us.

Tim: We’ve also developed a social selling workshop that we’ve been using with clients – and we’ll be making it more available in 2021. It’s proved really successful because they can see right there and then how to make much more of the platforms and how well-planned social selling can really deliver quality leads.

Great tips, thanks. When you're using LinkedIn, how do you measure success?

Russ: It's really hard to know how a post is going to be received. Especially when you publish that post that you are so sure is going to be the one and then only your mum likes it! (Hi, Mum!) But don’t worry – just move on and publish the next one – it might be (and often is) the most unexpected one which gets loads of engagement.

And as creatives, we are always hearing people say: ‘I’d like you to write me a viral post’. Tell me how you feel about that.

Russ: If you're chasing virality you will be disappointed. Full stop. And any agency that promises to write you a viral post should be avoided! ‘Viral’ is also relative to your audience size and the people you actually want to reach. For example, for us, a viral post might be one that generates 50 or more likes and comments from the people we want to be talking to.

Tim: Our latest post got most of its traction over the weekend – people are looking at LinkedIn then because they are using their downtime to catch up – especially now during the pandemic, because they’re not on the train on the commute home. One of the biggest things I hear from clients about LinkedIn is that they don’t believe their customers are on it. And that’s absolutely rubbish – they are there, and even if they’re not, someone they know is – it’s this tree with branches of connections and that’s how it works. So don’t assume your customer isn’t there. Assume they are and give them the content they want.

Russ: That’s a really good point. All you need is for someone to say "I saw this interesting thing on LinkedIn the other day." Also, people in B2C jobs or service jobs like taxi drivers don’t think that LinkedIn is for them – but it is. Everyone might be there in a professional capacity, but they still go on holiday and need a lift to the airport. Or double glazing or whatever. So please don’t make the mistake of thinking that LinkedIn is only for lawyers, accountants and recruiters – anyone can use it to their advantage if they know what they’re doing.

Proudest moments so far and looking at the year ahead

So, guys, you’re pretty visible and you seem to have done a lot in a short space of time! What are you most proud of so far?

Tim: Ooh... That’s quite tough. But I think the thing I am most proud of is that we started a creative agency in the middle of a global pandemic. And the first thing that everyone turned off in March this year was marketing and creative, so that was definitely a punt and we've made it through our first six months more than ok. I’m actually really proud of that – and of the fact that we have clearly positioned ourselves to work with ambitious sustainability-focused businesses. These are the businesses that want to get going no matter what. So far, we have re-branded a client’s business, built them a new website and we’re supporting them on a 12-month contract. We’ve gained extra work from existing clients. We’ve done a full branding project for a start-up – it’s exactly the work we wanted. We’re building a collection of business friends and we’ve also managed to grow LinkedIn Local Farnham – we have some big plans for that too in 2021, which is exciting.

And Russ, what about you?

Russ: I think the single biggest thing to be proud of is working with our client, Mesh Energy. Doug, the Founder and Director, gave us a fantastic testimonial recently. They engaged us in May 2020 for an initial six months retainer, and Doug saw a direct return on his investment, so he has engaged us for another 12 months which will take us to the end of October 2021. And his testimonial ended with "Russ and Tim get shit done." And that’s true!

Tim: And that’s another client that came from LinkedIn. Russ commented on one of his posts and gave some friendly advice...

Russ: ...and then I followed it up with a private message a few days later to say how good it would be to chat. Two weeks later, they were a client! We did everything by Zoom and now we’re renting an office in the same building as them. You couldn't make it up! Another thing I'm proud of is sticking to our guns and turning down those three or four projects in our first few months. It feels really good to be living and working to our values.

So 2020 was a pretty eventful year for you both. What are your plans for 2021?

Tim: One of our most important goals for 2021 is to certify as a B Corporation. We have started our B Impact Assessment already, and have covered about 40 out of the 80 points needed to get the certification. We’re doing it because we want to be a business that is purpose-driven and does what it says on the tin. It’s such a rigorous assessment – a lot of it is tied up in your governance - but it will be worthwhile, and it will show businesses in the sustainable sector that we are serious about our commitment and our work. I believe it won’t be too long before being a Certified B Corporation is a requirement for agencies who want to work in this sector. And we definitely want to be there from early on.

Back up a minute! A B what?

Russ: It’s a formal evaluation of the impact your business has on the environment, workers, customers and community. The certification measures your entire social and environmental performance – everything from where you source your office supplies to how you contribute to your community. It’s tough to get, but it’s top of our list for this year. As they say themselves on their website: "Certified B Corps are a new kind of business that balances purpose and profit. They are legally required to consider the impact of their decisions on their workers, customers, suppliers, community, and the environment. This is a community of leaders, driving a global movement of people using businesses as a force for good." We want to be a part of that movement!

Tim: There are currently only 3,720 Certified B Corporations in the whole world. We know of two UK agencies who have certification – I know it took one of those agencies 1,500 hours to complete it. It’s definitely hard work, but it’s important to us and to our clients, and we’re determined to get it done. We also plant trees and purchase Gold Standard carbon offsets. We are a climate positive workforce and have been since day one. We plant 100 trees for every new client and 50 for every website that goes live – using Ecologi – and we have already planted more than 900 trees.

Russ: We will also be starting to look at social and community support, where we give to charities as well as promoting sustainable processes. We want to be flexible enough to give to both local and national charities.

This sounds great. Lots of businesses of all sizes could learn something from your approach! But what about plans for growing Avery & Brown?

Tim: We’re driven by doing exceptional work for businesses that are having a positive impact.

Russ: We’re not in it to just get to a point where we sell the business and buy a big house and a Ferrari.

Tim: An electric Ferrari.

Russ: A Tesla!

Tim: And only a sustainable house, obviously.

Very on-brand. So to get back to the point?!

Russ: Haha, ok. For 2021, we want to build our business using freelancers and consultants to boost our services rather than hiring a team. We need to focus on our B Corporation certification, rather than hiring employees. We want to be flexible enough to scale up when it’s needed and just have the two of us when that’s all that’s required.

Tim: We want to build a team of people who are interested in doing great work in the sustainable sector, so we’ll pull people in when we need them. Our focus is growing the business, growing our clients’ businesses and getting that certification.

Russ: The way we work is not like a traditional outsourced ‘agency’. We are an extension of our clients’ teams. We really get to know them – we just want to be friends, like everyone does!  And we’re committed to working with these ambitious businesses. You could easily say every business is ambitious, but the fact is they’re not. There are lots of lifestyle businesses out there, but we want to work with businesses that want to grow – giving them a completely different business outlook and inspiring them to do more. It’s important that sustainable businesses can grow, and that’s what we’re supporting. The more we can support these businesses to grow, the more impact they can have, and that’s something we really want to be part of.

Thanks so much, both of you. It’s been fantastic to see you in your office and hear your story! I can see you’re buzzing with the possibilities ahead of you, and that you're really excited about working with businesses who share your passion for doing things better. I’ll follow your progress over 2021 and look forward to catching up with you again soon.